So, while Tim Gratz and I were discussing who dies and goes to heaven and who dies and goes to hell and burns there forever, there was yet another player in the field, whom we had not yet considered :-). Yesterday, Tim emailed me about it, with his thoughts, and I replied in italics in the body of his:
It surprises me that in view of our recent discussions you have not commented on the Pope’s recent comments as reported in Conch life that there is no literal hell and that all religions are true. Because he said they are true in the hearts of those who believe in them”
Yours is the first I heard of the Pope’s pronouncements. Just yesterday, I told the angels, one is Jesus, that all but those born-again in spirit, according to Christianity’s view, die and burn forever in hell, is the work of the devil and news of that should go viral.
Today you send news that the Pope, of all people, whose pronouncements go viral, says there is no literal hell and all religions are true because they are true in the hearts of those who believe in them. Hardly a coincidence.
I don’t agree believing something is true, makes it true. I don’t agree the belief held by many Muslims that Islam is the one true religion, and all other religions are false, is accurate. I don’t agree Christians believing they have the only true religion is accurate.
At the risk of offending Catholic friends, what a bunch of well I will not use the nouns that come to mind here.There are things that are either true or false and the fact that people believe a falsity to be true does not make it to be true. When Catholics sincerely believed that the sun revolved around the earth, that belief did not make it true.
Well, Tim, you believe only born again Christians, by your definition, die and go to heaven, and all other people, probably 99 percent of humanity, die and go to hell and burn their forever. Does your belief make it true?
What’s the difference between your belief, and a Mulsim’s belief that you area godless infidel? That Muslim believes his interpretation of the Koran every bit as much as you believe your interpretation of the Bible. Belief is belief, Tim. It usually has nothing to do with reality, which the sun revolves around the earth analogy wonderfully demonstrates.
All religions cannot be true since many have doctrines incompatible with those of other religions.
Let’s take reincarnation. It either exists or it does not exist. If it does not exist, then those religions that subscribe to a belief in it are not true but false.
Every religion has truth in it, Tim. Including Christianity. Including Native American. Including Islam. Including Taoism. Including Buddhism. To name but a few of many, many religions which have been on this planet. There is only one God, Tim, which goes by as many names as there are stars in the heavens, and more names than that probably. God is unfathomable. God is infinite. There is no way any religion can define or limit God, therefore.
You do not like it but traditionally the Christian religion has held itself out to be the one true religion. The Pope cannot have it two ways. All religions cannot be true since otherwise the Christian doctrine that other religions are false negates the Pope’s generalization. It is like the old saying that no generalizations are true.
Based on what you reported to me today, Tim, it looks to me the Pope is being guided by the Holy Spirit, and not by ancient beliefs and doctrines peculiar to Catholicism, specifically the Roman strain.
For centuries the Catholic church has proclaimed that it is the one true church. Catholics held that certain prouncements of the pope were infallible. Now this Pope proclaims that many of those infallible proclamations were false. By his logic he leads a church that proclaimed falsehoods throughout the centuries.
For centuries the Catholic church was delusional. The one true Church is not of this world, just as the Kingdom of God is not of this world. Based on what you report today, Tim, this new Pope is being told by God to start setting that record straight, or some of it at least.
Christianity is either true, which renders other religions as false, or it is not true. If it is not true, that negates the Pope’s declaration that all religions are true.
Christianity has been delusional since men not infused with the Holy Spirit began running it, which was not long after Peter and the other Apostles, who actually knew Jesus and were infused with the Holy Spirit, passed from this life. From that moment on.
Ideas have consequences. It can be dangerous to believe in a falsity. E.g. some extreme branches of Christianity that forbid any medical interventions. Children of parents who believe this have died.
Agreed, it can be dangerous to believe in falsity which is so ingrained that it is view as truth. I wrote to you quite a while back that Christianity made the Bible into a graven imagine of its god, even though the Bible did not even exist when Jesus lived and taught Peter and others. How can any man, or any woman, claim to fully know God? In the Gospels, Jesus said he knew what the Father had revealed to him. Jesus did not say he knew everything there was to know about God. God cannot be reduced down to what people believe, Tim.
This is not to say that there are not good teachings in many religions. In fact, while I think all persons ought to come to Christianity I would say it is probably better for an individual and a society that there be belief in a false religion than in no religion at all. For instance, many religions believe in the sanctity of marriage and upholding marriage is good for a society. Same with other doctrines e.g. robbery and theft are wrong.
The odd thing about marriage is, it seems to have been invented by people. I see no mention in Genesis of Adam and Eve getting married.
What long has puzzled me:
How did people get into Nod, where Adam and Eve’s son Cain was exiled by God after killing his brother Abel, if Adam and Eve were the first two people and Cain and Able were their first two children? One local Bible expert told me, those people in Nod were other of Adam and Eve’s children, and Cain went over there and found a sister to marry and produce children with. Given God is no idiot, I had a hard time believing God would create people whose offspring could only mate with their siblings. But according to the local Bible expert, that’s what happened, because the Bible offered no other explanation.
The Pope’s thinking is as messy as my office used to be.
Or, Christendom’s thinking is messy as your office used to be, and the Pope is being led by the Holy Spirit.
If there is no hell there can be no purgatory.
The Catholic church should pay reparatons to families whose ancestors paid good money to the Chuch to get their departed souls out of purgatory!
I think there actually is something like a purgatory, but, if it happens, for people to be duped into giving the Vatican money to pray their deceased relatives out of that place would be outrageous. The Vatican, and its “priests”, should do it for free.
The way the angels explained it to me, when a soul leaves this life, it goes through an orientation in “heaven” and then is told it will have a life review before it goes anywhere else. The life review consists of a reliving, in spirit time, the experiences of the life on earth, from the view, including the emotions, of the other people in that soul’s life on this world. The departed soul gets to chose when to take that review, and after it is taken, there is a “meeting” at which that soul and other beings discuss the next experience for that soul, which can be reincarnation on this world as a human infant, or some other experience not on this world.
Before you jump out of your skin, Tim, think about where in the Gospels reincarnation came up between Jesus and his disciples.
One time, they asked him if Elijah had returned, and Jesus said yes, but he was not recognized, and the disciples knew he spoke to them of John the Baptist.
Another time, the disciples asked of a blind man whom Jesus had made able to see, who had sinned, the man or his parents, that he as born blind? Jesus said it was neither, the man was born blind so Jesus could heal him and the Kingdom of God be made manifest. Jesus did not, however, rebuke the disciple for the question, or deny that the man could have sinned before he was born.
There is so much about God and spirit workings and realms, of which Christendom is totally unaware. Jesus told his disciples in the Gospels that wise men and kings would give all they had to hear what he told them, and he taught them straight up what the masses only heard in parables. From my read of the New Testament, it looks to me that the disciples took most of what Jesus taught them in secret to their graves.
Very interesting, Sloan.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/350964It certainly looks like the Vatican is redoing what the Pope says.Of course why should atheists care whether the Pope asserts thay get to an afterlife, a proposition they think is nonsense.Suggest you look at some of the internet postings on the controversy he ignited on Wednesday.
Internet postings where – do you have a link?
I pulled this from the article, which the link you provided brought up, because it appears to be what the Pope actually said, which is what I wanted to see:
“They (the Apostles) complain [saying]… If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” [But Jesus corrected them, saying] “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” [According to Francis, the Apostles were] “a little intolerant” [and thought that only those of their group could be good, believing that] “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” [The pope said:] “This was wrong… Jesus broadens the horizon… The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation.”
[Pope Francis continued:] “The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can… The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists?’ Everyone!… We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
I could care less what a spin doctor said later. I don’t care for spin doctors, even if they work for the Pope, the President of the US, or the city of Key West and its police department. Spinning is their job, telling the truth is not.
However, it is interesting that the spin doctor spun the Pope did not mean Atheists do not burn in hell. Thereby, the spin doctor admitted/agreed the Pope said anyone who believes in God, regardless of his/her religion, does not burn in hell.
Jesus also said in the Gospels:
I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.
After last writing to you, I found myself saying to you that most wars in Western history, since Jesus, seem to have been fought over whose religion was right. When what would have been much nicer, and certainly a lot more productive, if everyone, regardless of their religious affiliation, or lack thereof, simply lived by “Do unto others as you want done unto you.” If everyone did that that back before Jesus showed up on this planet, what need would there have been for him to show up on this planet? Rhetorical question.
Atheists are interesting. They tend, in my experience, to be inclined toward tolerance and good living. Yet, because they don’t believe God exists, God punishes them with burning in hell forever. Sorry, for me that just doesn’t pass the smell test.
Some years ago now, it came to me that there really is no such thing as an Atheist. For if there were no God, there would be no reason to be an Atheist. Or to even talk about it. The truth is, no Atheist can prove God does not exist. Atheists only believe God does not exist. /
Just as Christians, Catholics, and other Christendom sects, Mormons, Jews and Muslims cannot prove God exists; they only believe God exists, unless they have had the direct experience which proved to them God exists.
I had countless direct experiences, which moved me past belief to knowing God exists, but I cannot prove it, any more than the Pope can prove God exists; any more than you can prove God exists, Tim.
Jesus knew God exists, because Jesus had the direct experience. Peter knew God exists, because Peter had the direct experience. Maybe Pope Francis had the direct experience. The fellow whose name he took when he became Pope had the direct experience. Before that, Francis of Assisi only believed God existed.
Once a person has the direct experience and knows God exists, that person sees life in a new way. That person no longer is part of the main herd, even if he/she pretends outwardly to be. This is not something that can be understood without having the direct experience.
Very interesting stuff, Sloan. I will try to reply tomorrow. It is now 3 am I am just off work and need to sleep before church tomorrowI of course do not agree with what the Pope said but I am sure you noticed the synchronicity that we had started our own discussion on who goes to Heaven right before the Pope made his controversial statrments last Wednesday. Probably not a mere coincidence, aye?
Not a chance it was a coincidence.
There is a different post today at www.goodmorningfloridakeys.com, which you should be able to reach by clicking on that link today, and by clicking on this link at any time:
the lower Florida Keys poopgrinder love fest in a nutshell, with a few new poopbird of paradise special love droppings